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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
Auxiliaries Admin questions |
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Does anyone have any information on how the Auxiliaries administrated themselves. Obviously they took over prominent buildings and garrisoned themselves within, but were they wholly self sufficient? By this I mean did they cook for themselves, drive themselves, provide their own guards for their accommodation etc? Did they have to bring in their own food supplies etc, or did they have any assistance from the military or RIC for these sort of more mundane duties?
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Dez |
Veterans Division | #1 | ||
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Paddy
There was a separate group of men known as the Temporary Constables and Veterans, attached to the Auxiliary Division, who carried out all of the fatigue duties connected with the Auxiliary Division. They provided the Drivers, Fitters, Mechanics, Armourers, Cooks and Canteen staff needed, for the Division to function efficiently. They were recruited for a years service from Veteran ex-soldiers of 35 years of age and upwards. They were paid 10s. a day, with a gratuity of 25 Pounds on completion of a years service. Boot allowance of 1s. a week was also paid, along with a rent allowance of 40 Pounds a year. and separation allowance of 2s. a night to married men. These Temporary Constables were distributed among the different Auxiliary Companies stationed in different locations. The Veterans Division had its headquarters at Gormanstown Depot, alongside but separate from the R.I.C. Training Depot. For the Auxiliary Division, arms and stores were supplied by the Ordnance Department of the Army, and each Auxiliary Company had it's own Quartermaster to look after it's needs. All Auxiliary Company security duties were carried out by the Auxiliary Cadets themselves. Dez |
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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
#2 | |||
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Dez,
Thanks. Some excellent in depth information there. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brains a bit more. Is there any information regarding the location, type, standard etc of training which they received upon signing up. Was it provided by the RIC, Military, the leaders od the Auxiliaries themselves, or a combination of them all? |
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Dez |
Auxiliary training | #3 | ||
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Paddy
The title should be Auxiliary non - training, unfortunately no type of anti guerilla training, in either an urban or rural setting was given to the Auxiliaries. When setting up the Division, the men recieved six weeks 'training', which was carried out in the early days at the Curragh Army Camp. This training was focussed on police work and methods, it was provided by the R.I.C. and was absolutely useless for the task they were about to perform. They had to find their own instructors from among their comrades to fit in some revolver, rifle and bombing practice, also they found their own instructors for the Lewis Gun. There was no familiarisation with motor vehicles, which was a big drawback when they took to the field, as they were intended to operate as a highly mobile force. So they had to learn on the job, making many mistakes, which cost them dearly. The intelligence aspect was also neglected and for many months they operated without proper intelligence in a hostile environment. The main reason that they did not get proper training,--- there was nobody to provide it, certainly not the R.I.C and the Army was trained for static warfare, so they had to improvise as they went along and in doing so probably became the first solely anti - guerilla force anywhere. Dez
Last Edited By: Dez 17-Aug-2010 10:54 PM.
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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
#4 | |||
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Dez,
Thanks for that. |
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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
#5 | |||
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Chaps,
Another admin question if you don't mind. The Auxilliaries obviously had a rank structure which from what I can see included Company Commanders and Section Leaders. I've noticed that on occasion the ranks of Temporary Cadets in their previous military careers could have been higher than those of the people in charge of them in the Auxiliaries. Does anyone know what the exact rank structure was and how people were selected for command posts? Did they run promotion courses etc?
"I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st. July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world." Captain Wilfred Spencer 2nd July 1916
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Peter Mc RIC |
#6 | |||
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The chain of command at a company level ran from the Company Commander at the top (and his 2i/c), down through the Platoon Commanders, to Section Leaders, to the Temporary Cadets. Within the Company would also be found the Intelligence Officer(s) and frequently a dedicated Quarter Master.
I have not found any definitive evidence of how individuals were selected for a post. There are as many, if not more, former Lieutenants serving as Platoon or Section commanders as there are Majors or Captains. Nor does the possession of any distinction for bravery help; even a Victoria Cross merely won you a Temporary Cadetship. It has been suggested that the Companies 'self selected', rather in the way that some Special Forces do; but again I have yet to see definitive evidence. I doubt that they had the time or interest to run 'promotion' courses, although they certainly held courses on tactics and operational matters which effected some degree of 'cross-pollination' between Companies. Good question Paddy, and one to which I hope we can one day find an answer. |
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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
#7 | |||
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Thanks Peter. In his book 'The Men I Killed' Crozier suggests that he was selected to lead the Auxilliaries because of his ruthless 'can do' attitude on the western front. I wonder if he might have selected the Company Commanders?
"I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st. July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world." Captain Wilfred Spencer 2nd July 1916
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Peter Mc RIC |
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He may have, and the fact that some of the Company Commanders served with him in Lithuania before the Troubles may point to his hand being part of the selection process. But he wasn't the first Auxiliary on the block and it would seem some of the companies, and senior staff positions, were filled before he arrived.
I know off the top of my head 2 who were in Lithuania (MacFie and Hemming) and I'm sure there were others, but I don't have my books to hand. Mark Sturgis had a very poor view of Crozier and I think the 'can do' attitude Crozier thought he possessed was not apparent to all. |
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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
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Peter,
Reading that book I very much got the impression that he was an extremely dangerous blowhard.
"I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st. July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world." Captain Wilfred Spencer 2nd July 1916
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indiansign |
#10 | |||
Dez wrote:Hi Dez, Very interesting stuff. Would it be true to say that someone with the title of "Temporary Constable" would definitely have been in this unit which provided fatigue duties, or might that title have applied to others also? As a follow up, would a driver/cook/mechanic etc have been armed? Thanks |
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Dez |
Temporary Constables. | #11 | ||
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Hello indiansign,
The title 'Temporary Constable' was only applied to men who joined the Veterans Division. These men were attached to, and did not operate in any capacity outside of the Auxiliary Division. The drivers were certainly armed, the others, cooks, fitters etc. would not have needed to be armed while carrying out their normal duties within the barracks. Outside of barracks, personal protection weapons would have been essential, as these men were also considered prime targets. The following example indicates the danger that existed for them when they ventured outside barracks. Around 9:00 pm on 21st April 1921, Temporary Constable Dennis Loughlin, who was employed as a cook in the "H" Company Barracks in Tralee, Co. Kerry, was shot dead in Knightley's Public House in Castle Street, Tralee, by I.R.A. gunmen who escaped in the confusion that followed.
Last Edited By: Dez 30-Dec-2010 7:48 PM.
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redcoat |
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I guess that this comes under the heading of Admin?
I Found this advert in the Daily Mail 28 September 1920: SITUATIONS EX-OFFICERS wanted; seven pounds a week, free uniform and quarters; must have first-class records; to join Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary; twelve months' guarantee - Apply, with full particulars, service, age, etc. to R.O., R.I.C., Scotland Yard, London, SW. Steve |
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caplestreetman |
Auxiliary Training | #13 | ||
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Paddy Mayne, in answer to some of your questions, there is a great reference book - "Bloody Sunday" by James Gleeson, there is a whole chapter, en - titled "The Auxiliary,s Story" which gives an insight to how it really was in 1920, the story is by a Bill Munro, I do not know which division he was in, there are clues in his story and I am sure Peter McRIC can tell us more, it is a very honest and frank account and the following is a few paragraphs of his story.
Bill Munro, as nice and gentle a man as you would ever want to meet, joined them in 1920.This is the story he told me, which I have not altered in any way. "In the summer of 1920 London was, like every other city in the United Kingdom, cluttered with unemployment debris from the 1914 - 18 war, a goodly number of them being officers. Of those ex - officers, a majority were in their early twenties, so that subtracting their war service they were mere schoolboys with no knowledge of civilian life, and yet too old to take up boys jobs. In other words they were unemployable. For some months recruiting had been going on for those who became known as the Black and Tans. These were ex - soldiers who joined the RIC as temporary constables and who served with the regular police and had at no time active duty with the Auxiliaries, although some were employed by them as batmen, cooks ans so on. Later some of them drove for us. To those who are not old enough to remember that year, it will seem incredible, particularly with the full employment after the second war, to learn the means to which some of us had to resort to make a living. There were those who were lucky and could get away to the Colonies but they were few. There were those who addressed envelopes for 5s. a thousand; those who turned hawker to sell matches or boot laces and such things, in other words became beggers........... "It was to men such as these that the formation of a force of Auxiliaries of the RIC came as a godsend.I do not say that all who were attracted to the service were in the same class, there were also older men who were for various reasons without roots. They welcomed it. "The Corps was advertised as a Corps d,Elite which, of course, made it more attractive, but I doubt if one in a hundred knew anything about the Irish question, as it was then called, nor had they any feelings against the Irish. This was simply pennies from heaven.......... "The conditions offered were good, particularly for 1920 £1 a day all found, with the rank of Police Sergeant - so it is hardly to be wondered at that the response was brisk, at least at first. We had no idea of what we were to be called upon to undertake. It was a job of work, and although it may appear that we were little more than mercenaries, that was not how it struck us at the time. "Recruiting offices had been set up in most large towns and thither we went.The main qualifications were service as an officer in any of the three services, physical fitness and the names of references "We were not required to wait long before being given tickets to the Curragh, which was then the training centre, Hare Park camp, a disused army hutment, was our depot,the rest of the barracks being then full of the army. "We spent about six weeks messing about - what little we got of instruction had very remote relationship to the work we had to do in the country. Theoretically we were put through a shortened police course, having impressed on us the meaning of a misdemeanour and a felony, our power of arrest, and what we could and could not do.There was a certain amount of arms and bombing practice but all very sketchy, instructers being drawn from our own numbers. "The company was composed of four sections, each with an officer ranked as District Inspector 3, in charge, and a Head Constable as his second. These were chosen, not for any experience in the work to come, but mostly by virtue of having held senior rank in the services. In command of the company was a Lieutenant Colonel rated as District Inspector1, with a DI2 as second in command. In the choice of CO,at least, someone was inspired because he turned out to be a wise and considerate officer, who got little cerdit for the good work he did. "Towards the end of the training we were issued such RIC uniform as the stores could provide................... By some miracle there was good supply of RIC caps and we were all issued with one. "It was not till some months later that we were given the Balmoral-cum beret that became the only distinguishing mark between ourselves and the RIC constables.The uniforms we got were the usual RIC, that is to say dark green jackets and trousers, and at no time was the official uniform breeches and leggings. Really there was no uniform regulations and we could turn out in a mixture of Army,RAF and Naval uniforms, provided we wore the regulation cap. "Our arms consisted of a .45 service Webley and a .303 rifle.Quite naturally, I suppose, some of us were influenced by Western films and wore our revolvers in holsters low slung on the thigh which looked very dashing but which were the cause of quite a number of shot-off toes - as the enthusiasts attempted to emulate the cowboys of Texas.Our stay at the Curragh had been very pleasant, and had included a few nights as guests of the regimental messes.We also attended one race meeting at which our only ex - Scotland Yard member lost his lot on the three - card trick, an incident he never lived down, until he disappeared three months later whilst out trying for information........... It continues with his experiences in Macroom, County Cork and Dublin where he finishes his tour of duty, a fascinating story and I hope the above has answered some of Paddy Maynes queries. CSM |
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Paddy Mayne.debcenrevisited |
#14 | |||
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caplestreetman,
Many thanks for that excellent insight. I shall try to get hold of that book.
"I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st. July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world." Captain Wilfred Spencer 2nd July 1916
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Dez |
Sources | #15 | ||
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Hello capelstreetman |
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caplestreetman |
Auxiliaries story | #16 | ||
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Hello Dez and thank you for your wise words and corrections, you obviously know your subject, my intention was not to mis- lead or mis - inform, but to try and help Paddy Maine in some of his queries and to quote the few chapters I posted to give him an insight into the life of an Auxiliary in Ireland and one of the very few that was put down in print. You are quite right to point out the inaccuracies as they can be quoted and then be taken as fact and get posted on other sites and so on.A good researcher should always check and double check any stories or statements.
CSM |
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caplestreetman |
curfew and passes | #17 | ||
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Hello Peter McRIC, I am not sure if this is the right section for my queries.
I am looking for the dates when curfew was first made law in Dublin, the hours of curfew, who policed it and what were the punishments if you were caught on the streets outside the permitted hours.without a good reason. As the troubles progressed I would have thought that the hours of curfew became even stricter. I understand that there would have been many essential workers e.g dockers, hotel workers, tradesmen, hospital staff, civilian staff that worked for the RIC and Army , to name but a few that would have worked all hours. Was there some kind of official pass that was issued to these workers and if so, how were they checked. Who signed the pass and how long did they last. I know there were RIC and Army (Auxiliary ? ) checkpoints at strategic points all over the city. I am interested if anybody has seen one of the passes and would they have been easy to copy and abused by the IRA, I am led to believe the passes did not contain a photo, unless someone knows different. In my research I came across an electrician who was one of Michael Collins agents who was able to travel all over Dublin with his work as cover in all the Government buildings because he had a pass, hence my interest and the above questions on the subject. I look forward to your comments CSM |
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ballyroughan |
Curfew Pass, | #18 | ||
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The sixth Policeman to be killed, in the past six months on the streets of Dublin, was Constable John Walsh, 63B, D.M.P. on February, 20th, 1920, after which seven arrest's were made, and a curfew order was imposed, by which no person other then members of the crown forces were permitted to be on the streets of Dublin, between, midnight and 5 am.
The curfew order, would be later imposed, in other Towns, across Ireland, with advanced, or earlier hours of curfew, and facilitate night raiding by Police and Military.The curfew would remain in force, up to the truce on July 11th, 1921. For one mans view of the curfew in Dublin, and its effect on the civil population see, Daily New's (London) 29th March, 1920. by Erskine Childers, 1870-1922. From the few pass's i have, or seen , Tradesman, staff of Dublin Castle, and other Goverment buildings, all have photographs attached, but these are work pass's and could not be used after midnight, the pass carried by Police called " Police on Duty Pass " and the curfew pass carried by Secret Service Agents, that was used, had no photograph attached, i will describe just one, the curfew pass proper, it is a four and half by three and half ins, thin flimsy white paper, in the top left hand corner is it's seriel number, in the right hand corner is an round hand stamp which reads, Military Permit Office No 1, below that on next line is name of the pass holder, and below that his address, all in longhand, then printed below that is the words, Permitted to, and in longhand is written, go abroad, and lastly bottom right hand, signuture of Authority, General Boyd. Note-Neligan states in his book, on becoming an agent, he was told if you are ever in trouble, make this sign' there was another sign of recognition when meeting another agent, somewhat like those of Freemasons. He told me something about secret inks one being urine, he gave me an automatic pistol and ammunition, it was the same weapon as the "G" men used, unreliable, but handy to carry in civilian clothes, he gave me a curfew pass, signed by General Boyd, C.O. Dublin, Command. Ref- R.Abbott,Police Casualties Ireland 1919-22. Pub, 2000. D.Macardle, The Irish Republic. Pub,1937. D.Neligan, The Spy in The Castle. Pub, 1968. Private Collection.
Last Edited By: ballyroughan 4-Jun-2011 8:55 PM.
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caplestreetman |
curfew and passes | #19 | ||
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Many thanks ballyroughan for that information, it is much appreciated, the Tradesman passes with photographs attached would be difficult to copy, unless one changed the photograph of course but I cannot say if that was possible if there was an official stamp or writing on or across the photograph as I have never seen one, would you know if any have survived ?
The pass issued to the Secret Service Agents seems a different proposition and by the discription could have been open to abuse, very interesting ballyroughan and thanks again CSM |
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caplestreetman |
Auxiliaries story | #20 | ||
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Dez, need your knowledge and expertise. First, let me explain I know nothing about fire arms, so my query relates to you mentioning on a previous post that to fire a .45 Webley revolver would require " a pull of 17lbs " . Could you " cock " this firearm in readiness or was that not possible with a .45 Webley revolver ? The reason I ask is that in some of the books I have researched they mention that automatic pistols can go off quite easily. |
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