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Member Since: 2-Nov-2009
Mar 19 14 10:02 PM
Member Since: 20-Mar-2011
Mar 21 14 9:44 PM
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Mar 24 14 9:12 PM
Irish Independent 27
January 1922 (page 6)
Freeman’s Journal 28
January 1922 (page 6)
Freeman's Journal, 26 January 1922The report of the shooting of Whyte and Hunt, said to be of Q Company at the L. & N.W.R. Hotel North Wall, follows (From Irish Independent, 27 June 1921, page 5). Posted under Q Company as well.
Apr 30 14 4:35 PM
May 1 14 7:07 PM
Member Since: 19-Jun-2011
Jul 5 14 9:48 AM
caplestreetman wrote:Hello ballyroughan, Paddy Mayne and Peter McRIC, an excellent attempt at trying to translate the letterDo you not wish you had all paid attention in your Latin classes and not complained saying - " what good will Latin be to me when I want a job or get older ! "We have to remember that Brigadier - General Sir Ormonde de L,Epee Winter, K.B.E., C.B.,C.M.G.,D.S.O., was a well educated man and a multi - linguist. He is someone I have come to respect and admire in my reading and research, in my opinion, history and certain books that he is mentioned in have not given him the full credit he deserves.Now, I had to study Latin when I attended St. Philip,s Grammar School, the Oratory, Birmingham many years ago but I am ashamed to admit, I can remember diddly squat !I will take no credit for the following translations as I could hardly remember anything and had to look them all upA quotation from the Book of Proverbs copied out by John Henry Newman into a schoolboy notebook at the age of nine -" Train up a child in the way he should go. and, when he is old, he will not depart from it ".My apologies for any inaccuracies in the following translationsCARPE DIEM - Seize the dayTE DEUM - Religious service, also known as an early Christian hymn of praise, TE DEUM LAUDAMUS -Thee O God we praiseFUGIT HORA - Time flies, HORA FUGIT - Even as I speak, time fleeteth way, the Latin term TEMPUS FUGIT means time fliesSPECTANS - Watching, observing, see, testing, considering.So perhaps you good people can try and make sense of these latin terms and re - write the letter.CSM
Sorry to be coming to this late - I have just found it.
The quote is this: 'carpe diem, dum spectas fugit hora'. It basically means, 'sieze the day' (that bit comes from Horace I think) 'the hours pass as you watch'. It is often carved onto sundials.
The other bit that is unclear is, I think, '..you have taken the ghost rather than the substance'.
'HA' in this instance is probably 'Home Army', rather then Horse Artillery. If he was referring to a unit I think he would have prefaced it with a 'the'.
From what I can tell, Lt Lockhart is acting as an ADC to Winter; he is helping to run his household. Hence the reference to china and cheques above. This is a fairly senior post for a Lt but generals usually take an ADC from their own regiment and both Lockhart and Winter were gunners. I would not be surprised to find that the Lockhart was either related to Winter or the relative of a friend.
As for the substance of the letter, Peter & Ballyroughan are correct. He has turned down the opportunity of service on the staff somewhere - from my reading, overseas. It is not necessarily a slot at Staff College. For one he is a bit junior for that and secondly I don't know if the Staff College was even up and running again by 1921/22. (It was shut down during the Great War which helps explains some of the military disasters that occurred perhaps).
British Officers in the 1920s would serve either at Regimental Duty (RD) or on the staff. Nowadays you can flick flack between the 2 but back then there was more of a division. If you wanted to get on in the Army, service on the staff was the way to go. Regimental service in peacetime would peak at regimental or battalion command. Lt Lockhart has clearly turned down a position and Winter is berating him for it. As speculation, but knowing a little about how this works, Winter has probably gone out of his way to secure his ADC a billet with a friend somewhere and it has piqued him that Lockhart has knocked it back. Instead Lockhart has taken a post that sounds good but will prove poor in career terms - hence 'ghost rather than substance'.
As for 'cannot afford to remain in HA', if that is 'Home Army' (an unofficial abbreviation but commonly used) it would either mean he cannot afford it in career terms or financially. Service overseas was always more remunerative than service at home. Socially, for a young Lt, overseas service would have had its drawbacks. Lockhart may have decided he just wanted a more time in UK. One of the great frictions in the Army is senior officers trying to build careers for bright young men who actually just want to enjoy themselves.
Jul 5 14 10:23 AM
DesW wrote:I know this may be a little off-topic, but it does concern spies/intelligence officers in the WOI.This man was the only IO acknowledged by the authorities among those killed that morning of 21 November 1920.His CWGC headstone and his remains are in Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Blackhorse Avenue, Cabra, Dublin 7.Why, as a Scot and a married man, he was buried here rather than back home, I do not know.But he is not the only non-native buried in this cemetery. The place is very nicely kept by the Office of Public Works, Ireland.An interesting place to visit.I took this photo of Lt MacLean's resting place yesterday.DesW
As far as I am aware, it was general policy for British soldiers to be buried in the country where they were killed / died up until 1982. The Falklands War was the first time families had the option of having their relative's remains repatriated.
Clearly there was a different rule for the ADRIC as there are some well known pictures of Cadet Morris being buried in Croydon in November 1920. I think the picture is still copyrighted so I have not reproduced it here.
At least 9 of the Bloody Sunday officers were taken back to England; those 9 were given funerals at Westminster. There are, again, images of the coffins being conveyed onto HMS Seawolf. Why these 9 and not the others is a good question. It would tend to suggest that they were involved in different duties to the others. There is a lot of confusion as to the actual status of an individual described as being involved in intelligence duties.
Jul 5 14 11:50 AM
Jul 5 14 12:38 PM
You are very kind.
Sadly I am on and off the forum in bursts through travel. I often struggle to see when a thread was posted & I am conscious of replying to threads that could well have died out years ago.
Also, I think the final word that you are looking for in the letter is 'given' - 'But I have given you up'. This, I think, is Winter saying that he has acquiesced to Lockhart being posted away, not that he has 'given up' on Lockhart as an individual, despite what follows in the letter.
Member Since: 11-Apr-2004
Jul 5 14 2:20 PM
Jul 5 14 3:48 PM
Thanks. I am using it now. Sadly I am often away for months at a time so the threads are a little dated by the time I catch up..
And as for mobile devices I am still getting my head around the smaller abacuses.
Jul 5 14 9:27 PM
Member Since: 15-May-2010
Jul 9 14 8:34 PM
A unusual souvenir brought back to England by Lieut. L.K.Lockhart, Ormonde Winter's Private Secretary. The Office copy of Director of Intelligence Orders.Page 1
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Jul 10 14 3:45 PM
Date, 1 / 3 /21.
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